On the track of Hindley Herbert and family

Steve dropped me a line on December 8 saying – I paraphrase:

John has done some really good stuff. In brief he looked for the Hindley line – following up on the Hindley Herbert clue. It turns out Edward Hindley married Sophia Caroline Amelia Herbert - probably JBH Snr’s sister, hence the connection.

As far as I can see with my limited skills, this would mean that JBH Snr went into partnership with his brother-in-law, Edward Hindley. Steve went on

From there John traced the parents of Sophia - William Herbert and Eleanor Broadbent! The man's a whizz. I have to go through what he sent and will be in touch.

And sure enough he was back on December 11 sending me some raw material, the gist of which, as far as I can see is this:

· Focussing on the Herbert and Broadbent connection, a record was found of Wm Harbert (spelling was pretty casual, which adds to the problems of the search). He married Eleanor Broadbent in Sculcoates Yorkshire on November 13, 1803. The wedding date suggests that James Broadbent (Senior) and Sophia Caroline Amelia were brother and sister. They may have had another sister Eliza. Eleanor was born in Hull not far from Sculcoates.

· William seems to have moved around a fair bit. It seems from what Steve has at present was born in about 1780 in Coventry; was married in 1803 in Sculcoates; was in Woolwich Kent C1807/1811 between about 1807/1811. JBH snr was apparently born here as was his sister Eliza

He was apparently back in Liverpool in 1827 because Sophia was born about then. Seems she was what we would term in South Africa a laatlammetjie (literally a late lamb) as her mother would have been in her mid-40s

1841 he was in Liverpool and shown as a Cigar Merchant in the census. His wife was listed as Ellen, rather than Eleanor. Eliza and Sophia were still living at home – 25 and 14 years old respectively.

1851 he was in York, still shown as a Cigar Merchant in the census. Correctly named this time.

More to come – time has flown by and there are other things to do – believe it or not. I’m fascinated to see a reference to one of the cousins being born in Hong Kong of all places – a mere three or four years after it was established! Must try and get to that tomorrow to work out relationships. Will that entry provide more fuel for my theory of a ‘travel gene’ – see http://travelrabs.blogspot.com/2011/09/have-genes-will-travel.html

Who was Hindley Herbert?

Steve has been in contact with our cousin Anne's husband, Colin, who has also been working on this project. Among the items that Colin sent Steve was this cutting regarding the early death of James Broadbent Herbert Senior.

It is sad to read that his large family - a widow and nine children were left with no assets or income. Steve has often said that one of the frustrations of his work on genealogy is that although he can trace the milestones in the life of an ancestor – the WHEN things happened in their lives: births, marriages, children, work, death - it is very unusual to find anything about WHY some of these events occurred. Why did a family move from one city to another? Why did they change occupations?

In JBH’s case Steve has discovered that he was apparently working in the publishing business. It seems that eventually lost money – why? And he went into partnership as a coal merchant – that’s some stretch from publishing. Was he as unsuccessful in his new venture as his old one? His bankruptcy seems to have occurred about two years before he died. Is that what the newspaper report of his death refers to his death occurring from or being hastened by a broken heart.

We may never know the answer to these questions…….

Steve has also received a mound of papers and references from his good friend John in Britain, which he is working through. Among them is a reference to one Hindley Herbert, who died in 1915 at age 63. There is no certainty yet that Hindley Herbert is one of the family, but JBH’s partner was Edward Hindley and Hindley Herbert would have been born in about 1852. Maybe just a coincidence – maybe an answer to the question WHY was Hindley named Hindley?

AS THINGS STAND AT DECEMBER 2011

This is the current starting point of investigations into Ronald Harold Herbert (my father) antecedents.

Focus is at present on the James Broadbent Herberts (Senior and Junior – father and son had the same name) because they are the most likely oldest links in the chain discovered to date. It seems that the father of James Broadbent Herbert Senior could be Thomas Herbert of Woolwich Kent. His wife’s name was Lucy. But to date only one baptism of a Herbert was found at St Mary Magdalene Woolwich in the period 1800 -1812. This was 1804 – George Archibald son of Thomas and Lucy. George Archibald may have been a sibling of James Broadbent.

The information to date about James Broadbent Herbert Senior is:

1. Born about 1806 in Woolwich Kent. There is some doubt about the date because the various census results and the death certificate show variations:

a. 1841 census shows age 30 meaning a birth year of about 1811;

b. 1851 census shows age 44 meaning a birth year of about 1807;

c. death certificate shows age 59 meaning a birth year of about 1799

2. Married 7 June 1833 in Christchurch Hunter St Liverpool

3. Died 21 December 1858 in 49 Beau Street St Martin Liverpool

4. His wife’s maiden name was Mary Jane Hilton she

a. Was born about 1806 in Liverpool

b. Died on 23 April 1879 in 1 Gladstone Rd Bolton cum Beacombe Wallasey at the age of 73

5. JBH Senior appears in the census as either 'editor' or 'editor and publisher' until his death where his death notice shows him to be a coal merchant. Two notices from newspapers might throw some light on this.

The first is in London Gazette December 1851

NOTICE is hereby given, that the Partnership heretofore subsisting between us the undersigned, Thomas Baines and James Broadbent Herbert, as Proprietors and Publishers of the Liverpool Times, and also General Printers and Stationers, under the firm of Baines and Herbert, at Liverpool, in the county of Lancaster, is this day dissolved by mutual consent. All debts owing by or to the said late partnership will be paid and received respectively by the said Thomas Baines.-Witness our hands this 31st day of December 1851. Thomas Baines. James Broadbent Herbert.

The second in The London Gazette, October 24, 1856.

HENRY JAMES PERRY, Esq., one of Her Majesty's Commissioners authorized to act under a Petition for adjudication of Bankruptcy, filed the 21st day of May, 1856. against James Broadbent Herbert and Edward Hindley, of and carrying on business at Liverpool, in the county of Lancaster, Coal Factors, Agents, Dealers and Chapmen, and Copartners, under the style or firm of Herbert and Hindley; will sit on the 17th day of November next, at eleven of the clock in the 'forenoon precisely, at the District Court of Bankruptcy, in Liverpool, in order to make a Dividend of the separate estate and effects of Edward Hindley, one of the said bankrupts; when and where the creditors, who have not already proved their debts, are to come prepared to prove the same or they will be excluded the benefit of the said Dividend.

The information to date about James Broadbent Herbert Junior is:

1. Born about 1838 in Liverpool, Lancashire. There is some doubt about the date because the various census results and the death certificate show variations:

a. 1841 census shows age 7 meaning a birth year of about 1834;

b. 1851 census shows age 16 meaning a birth year of about 1834;

c. 1881 census shows age 40 meaning a birth year of about 1841;

d. death certificate shows age 45 meaning a birth year of about 1838

2. Married on 18 November 1880 in Registry Office Toxteth Liverpool

3. Died on 28 September 1883 in 16 Ullswater St Liverpool

4. His wife’s maiden name was Jane Eliza Richards she

a. Was born on 8 November 1855 in 14 Albert Street West Derby

b. No evidence of her death

5. James Broadbent Junior could not be found in 1861 and 1871 census. Our father/grandfather (Ronald Harold Herbert) said some years ago that his grandfather - possibly James - lived in India for some years. Perhaps he was in India at these census times? If he was born in 1834, as suggested by the census details he would have been about 20 years older than his wife. Is this also an indication that he might have been out of the country? In 1851 he is said to be working in a counting house. In 1881 his occupation is Civil Engineer, so he may well have had a clerical job in India.

The information to date about Harold Herbert, son of James Broadbent Herbert Junior and father of Ronald Harold Herbert is:

1. Born 28 August 1881 in Toxteth Park England

2. Married on 25 July 1908 in Baptist Chapel Egremont

3. Died on 4 June 1951 in 8 Judge's Drive West Derby at age 69

4. His wife’s maiden name was Edith Harrop she

a. Was born 25 January 1888 in Tranmere England

b. Died on 27 July 1950 in 2 Maldwyn Rd Liscard Wallasey at age 62